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Author Topic: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?  (Read 360 times)

orggardn

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Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« on: December 09, 2017, 10:15:23 PM »

I'm at a point that I need to start making a concerted effort to switch out to LED bulbs. I have done some searching and most everything I've found is 2014 (or earlier) as LEDs were first becoming readily available.

Does the forum keep an updated list of X10 compatible bulbs?
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Brian H

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 07:33:07 AM »

I can't say about a list.
Different revisions of a LED bulb. Can sometimes act differently.
So a list may not be accurate

It will make a difference what you want to use LED bulbs with and maybe the age of the modules.

Two wire X10 dimmers get power through the load and are specified for incandescent loads.
Many do not work with two wire X10 switches. The X10 On/Off modules that use a Neutral power connection at the switches location usually work.

Plug in modules. Like Light and Appliance Modules may depend on age.
Earlier versions with Local Control Sensing can make LED bulbs glow when off or their electronics can sometime trigger them back On. The later CFL friendly Appliance and Soft Start Lamp Modules are usually more tolerant with LED bulbs. LED Bulbs marked Dimmable should be used by Lamp Modules.  How many LED bulbs on a Lamp Module can sometimes result in different findings.

LED bulb users may chime in and give you their findings.
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Tuicemen

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 01:55:03 PM »

You don't say what type of module your expecting to use the LEDs with.
You may have to swap out the module a well.
Authinx (X10 Pro) have started to rollout some LED friendly modules even dimmable  ones.
I've found the newer dimmable LEDs work best even in some old non soft start type lamp modules.
 (Chr)
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roger1818

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 11:30:28 AM »

I have had good luck with the Luminus brand bulbs sold by Costco here in Canada with my old (non soft-start) unmodified LM465 modules (they turn off completely).  I have used both the 60W and 100W equivalent dimmable bulbs.
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orggardn

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 02:17:59 PM »

I have a peddler's mix of older modules....various brands: SmartHome, X10, Safety 1st, even a few "IBM" branded ones. I haven't gotten into anything elaborate (just) yet. Basic lighting macros for everyday living and away from home scenarios.
The modules I'm using are:
AM466
LM465
TM751
AM14A
I have others, but all are mainly 2 or 3 pin appliance  or lamp modules.

I wasn't aware of "soft start" modules - not sure I completely understand the concept / advantages.
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Tuicemen

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 02:39:05 PM »

All lamp modules are now soft start Since year before X10WTI  went under these ramp up to full bright when turned on and fade to off when turned off New  LM465 modules have the local sensing removed to make them compatible with dimmable LED bulbs.
Also the new 3 pin appliance module (AM466) also has it removed to work with all LEDs
The new modules also have revamped Relays and AGS so they are less noisy and hear weaker signals.

I've had good luck with  25 watt dimmable Philips LED bulbs using the old LM465 and am466 these bulbs I got at Canadian Tire.
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roger1818

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 01:48:30 PM »

With my unmodified, old style (non soft start) LM465 modules, older Phillips dimmable LED bulbs (the ones that are conical in shape as shown below) work well (turn completely off). 



I found a newer Phillips 100W equivalent dimmable LED bulb (shaped like a standard A19 bulb) wouldn't turn off completely so I swapped it out with a Luminus® A21 bulb from Costco, and it works well.
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taflemer

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2017, 02:45:08 PM »

A running list of compatible LED lights is an excellent suggestion.  I wonder if Tuicemen would consider a LED category?

There has been a fair amount of commentary on bulb selection from the X10 module type.   This makes absolute sense, in that one would not want to use a non-dimmable bulb with a lamp module.  Follow on criteria for me is consideration of bulb longevity and power line noise.  Before I go into these criteria, let me set up where I am at.

Our house is about 98% LED lighting.  We have a mix of vintages, some nearly ten years old; to recent purpose-built fixtures.  More detail to follow.

We have half a dozen lamp modules sitting in our spares box.  All wall switches and modules in use are the appliance type.  No dimmers.  Basically, early CFLs and LED bulbs were non-dimmable.  So, we have added more fixed intensity lighting to create incremental lighting levels.  More to follow.

LED bulbs have many key advantages:  color temp options, I really like the day light bulbs for color accuracy; Lower energy consumption, we have not verified actual savings.  In general, major appliances over shadow energy consumption for lighting.  However, as an example, our dining room had a five-light chandelier with 60W bulbs.  Full on 300W.  We now have 17 bulbs at 190W full on; One of the selling points to paying a premium price was longevity, LED bulbs were going to be forever. (well 30,000 hours typical 10-12 years running 8 hours a day).

Read the fine print on bulb packaging and most will include the disclaimer “Not For Enclosed Fixtures” a few will add a qualifier “Unless used outdoors”.   We installed early Cree bulbs with a large heat sink as part of the case in ceiling fans.  These may not be exactly 10 years old, but must nearly be.  I did not start dating bulbs with a sharpie until a few years ago.  The fixtures are the typical open bottom shroud.  I should measure the luminosity someday, but we seem to get plenty of light.  We have fully enclosed (outdoor) light fixtures in utility areas like the basement.  The fixtures were purchased for the protective grill and heavy glass bowl, not for water resistance.  In fact, I have recently removed the rubber rim seal in hope that more heat will escape.  We have eight of these fixture in our basement.  LED bulb last about 18 months.  One set of GE branded bulbs lasted less than a year.  The fixtures are not expensive.  We have not found an open fixture that we like for this application.  For now, we replace the bulbs; going back to CFLs might be an option; or a LED bulb that can be used in an enclosed fixture may come to market.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Newport-Coastal-8-in-White-Outdoor-Incandescent-Round-Nautical-Flushmount-with-Grille-7971-04W/203560998

We recently purchased a Lithonia LED Versi Lite for one of our closets.  I have a lot of respect for Lithonia products.  This one is purpose built with a non-replaceable LED array.  It almost looks like a recessed fixture, but mounts directly to the ceiling box.  So far it is working well.  Time will tell.

http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/led+versi+lite.html#.WjPNd0xFzIU

In the fine print on packaging, most bulbs will have a disclaimer “Not For Outdoor Use.”  Our region has an outside temperature range of 0-100F.  CFLs in outdoor applications did not do well in the winter, however, I do not recall having a problem with LEDs.  We have a mix of fixtures.  One type is the Lithonia Utility Vapor Tight Pendant.  Being outdoors, LED bulb longevity from a luminance standpoint appears good.  However, will cover next, noise is an issue.  Rather Industrial fixture for the back of the yard.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-1-Light-Gloss-with-Gray-Utility-Vapor-Tight-Pendant-VP150I-M12/205566502?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cTHD%7cG%7c0%7cG-BASE-PLA-D27L-InteriorLighting%7c&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgs7RBRDoARIsANOo-HhtLB-oH8guKNT-TEc6czmLUM7eFb9-E0Py6X8KDQmT4Iz5gV-xADsaAtpzEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CNDE-ryYjNgCFUEGDAodzbQN
 
We also have some low light pollution light fixtures with open bottoms on the house.  These use a standard A-19 bulb.   Survival rate in this application has been good.  I finally changed the bulbs after five years, not because of failure, but I really prefer the high K temp (daylight) bulbs over the low K (incandescent color).

This pretty well covers longevity.  Heat kills.  Enclosed fixtures shorten the life of LED bulbs.  In enclosed applications, I have pulled bulbs because half the LEDs are not producing light.  We have used two generations of Cree bulbs, A GE bulb that I think is no longer in production, Lowes and Home Depot branded bulbs in the A-19 base variety.  This year we replaced some bulbs with Walmart Great Value brand bulbs.  Good price and light output.  I think these are Sylvania manufactured (if someone knows better, please correct me).  Time will tell on longevity.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-LED-Light-Bulbs-8-5W-60W-Equivalent-Daylight-4-count/53017081#read-more

I think it took both Tuicemen and Jeff Volp to get my head around a noise issue with LED bubs.  Not being quantitative about the light output, some bulbs appear to be performing.  The light is on.  However, I would have trouble turning the lights off.  Either via the automation cycle or manually the lights would not turn off unless I manually flipped the wall switch (XPS3).  I know this is a weak defense, but the bulbs in question are all on long power line runs.  Must be noise or signal suckers.  Yes-but the noise comes from the bulb itself.  I finally took a mini controller to an outlet within a few feet of the fixture on the same run. On yes, off no.  I changed the bulb, problem solved.  The bulb was about six years old.  Light output was fine, the back noise to the switch was not.  We installed under cabinet LED lights our kitchen.  These have the internal equivalent to wall warts.  So far, no problem.  Time will tell.

As I stated earlier, I now date bulbs when installed.  I need to close up that process and retain boxes with recipes to return bad actors.  We have track lighting in our dinning room.  There are 10 fixtures.  With 50W halogen bulbs that would be 500W.   For brand name GU10 bulbs to replace the halogen we would have shelled out $US220 plus dinner for the governor.   I chose to purchase unbranded Chinese bulbs.  OK - $27 for the bulbs and no diner for the governor.  I think someone here mentioned flicker.  Yes, when turned off, with a XPS3, the bulbs flickered for about the first six months.  Drove my wife crazy.  Then, I guess the bulbs burned in and worked well for about three years.  One by one a bulb would die.   Last year I replaced all the bulbs with Ecosmart brand.  Working well.  No flicker. Walk down the light bulb isle of Home Depot and there are now bulbs for just about all applications.  The two that I have not seen and probably won’t, are heat lamps and high heat tolerant bulbs (think oven).  With the availability of bulb types, I probably will not buy any more unbranded Chinese products, branded yes.  Did I say I date the bulbs. 

I need to purchase one of JVs noise/X10 meters.  Short of that be aware that X10 problems may be LED bulb related.  A cheap alternative is to just change the bulbs.  Probably going to do that anyway.  I am looking at more purpose-built LED lighting, where the noise meter will be a decided plus.  Now, if you are a part of the building code police, this is from post on Yahoo Japan, not me.  Lowes has a couple of portable LED light fixtures.  Instead of mounting a fixture over the ceiling boxes in the garage, use an outlet plate.  Remove the feet on the work light and screw to the ceiling.  Plug in.  These are working well.  Three years so far.  $24 for fixture and bulb is cheap.  However not so cheap to just pitch as a solution.  I am thinking this where a noise/X10 meter comes in the lighting.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Utilitech-Pro-1200-Lumen-LED-Portable-Work-Light/50222787

This is probably more than anybody wanted to read about and I will go off topic a little bit here.  The guys that know their stuff about X10 already covered module considerations.  Here are considerations on longevity and noise impact on PLC.  The ability to dissipate heat in a LED bulb is critical.  LED bulbs may feel cooler in operation, but feel may not relate to internal heat damage.  A general (unqualified) rule of thumb has been if a fixture is approved for a 60W incandescent bulb, then a 60W equivalent is OK.  Both UL and CSA have updated their standards for LED lighting.  However, lighting manufactures I checked only state UL and/or CSA listed, not sighting the qualifying code.  UL 8750 is the code for LED lighting and builds on many codes for other types of lighting (incandescent, fluorescent…).  I tried to find a clear-cut bottom line on this, but no go.  As a practical, unqualified answer here is a working basis:

Purpose built fixtures with a fixed LED array that has UL/CSA approval is compliant.
Fixtures with UL/CSA approval, such as a ceiling light for a A-19 bulb with a max rating of 60W should not have bulbs with a higher equivalent LED rating installed.
To my surprise, I have found fixtures in Lowes and Home Depot without UL/CSA ratings.  So, if you are shopping with your significant other for a fixture and it appears to come down to price, one with and one without a UL/CSA rating, just say "I got this" and go for the rated fixture.

Almost done.  Earlier, I stated that we do not use dimmers.  How we got there is due mostly to CFLs and then LED bulbs.  Also, using the dimming function inside of AHP is OK, however, I really dislike using any of the X10 wall switches directly for dimming.  Call me a fat fingered, dummy with the coordination of a dirt clod, but I have to live with myself.  I could never get the dimmers to what I wanted directly.  So, here are a couple of examples of what we have done.

In our dinning room we purchased a 7-light chandelier, five candelabra bulbs up and two down.  I split the wiring so there are five up and two down on separate wall switches.  We also have track lighting around the perimeter of the room.  All use LED bulbs.  If we want an intimate dinner, we turn on just the two down bulbs in the chandelier.  For a more family style dinner we will either turn on the five up or both five up and two down.  If we want to really light up the room, then we turn on the tract lighting.  All on is 190W or a little over half of what our previous chandelier consumed full on.  In AHP we have the two down come on at sunset and turn off at 11:00PM.  This give a nice low light during the evening.  Manually we can turn the other on if we want more light.  From Sunrise to 9:00AM the track lighting is on.  This makes for a nice start of the day without blasting light.  This gives us a good range of lighting levels for the room without dimmers.

In our bedrooms there is madness to our methods.  We have table lamps, and a ceiling fan with lights.  The unit codes for the table lamps are 5 and 6, the ceiling/lights are split to 7 and 8.  We use mini controllers at the bedsides.  Just set the house code for the specific room and the controls are same.  For low level lighting we turn on one or both the table lamps.  For general lighting, like to get dressed, we use the ceiling fan lights.  If we want to blanket the room with light, we turn on all three.  The madness part is that originally, I purchased X10 Pro XPDI3-IW dimmers that would work on motor loads.  Would have been great to adjust fan speed, but I think the slope of the dimmer made it impossible adjust, even if my fat fingers were not involved.   The AHP twist we have is a maxi controller set to M house code with 32 macros so we can reach across multiple house codes.  Not really LED related.  Overall, we don’t miss tweaking dimmers.

Here is my last bit.  My intention was not to poo-pah LED savings.  It is just harder to justify in the home setting.  Especially in our case where bulbs in enclosed fixtures have a shorter life span than incandescent or CFL equivalents.  As plant management in a manufacturing facility, I promoted and monitored the execution of a plan to systematically install LED lighting in office spaces and the production/warehouse areas.  Lighting in both areas were on separate circuits.  So, determining before and after load characteristics was easy to do.  The office lighting was close, because not all of it was used 25/7.  The production and warehouse area were clear cut on a 24/7 basis.  Payback in the office was 9 months and prod/WH 6 month.  Lumens in the office area was neutral.  Surprisingly, prod/WH nearly doubled.

My add to the list
Walmart-Great Value 60W Eq, A-19 Non Dimmable
Lowes Utiltech Pro Work Light 15 and 10W
Lithonia LED Versi Light
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Tuicemen

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2017, 07:42:07 PM »

I'm not sure what would be the need for a LED category
The problem with a compatible LED list is LED bulbs are constantly being upgraded.
I and several others have found bulbs of same manufacture, wattage and even purchased from same store at the same time did not always perform the same.
What works for me may not work for the next person.

My off grid place is 100% LED bulbs (even inside my fridge) but only a few are X10 controllable due to the place is totally off grid
My City place is about 90 % LED and 10% CFL. Even my outdoor Flood lights are LEDs and perform well in the old X10 motion sensor Flood lamp fixtures

Authinx (new X10) has been battling the LED module compatibility issue since they took over.
Their new AM4663 pin appliance module simply work with Any LED I tested even cheep 1 Watt China made ones. There was no glow from bulb in the off position
The new LM465 lamp module worked for Dimmable LEDs I tested in fact in the off position the same cheep 1 watt China made LED bulb didn't glow a bit
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Brian H

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2017, 06:27:40 AM »

Not only are the manufacturers changing designs.

I have seen LED bulbs work differently between hardware revisions of X10 modules.
I have an older Philips Alien Head LED bulb. They modified the hardware and added a-A on the model number. Completely different between the different revisions.
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brobin

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2017, 04:19:52 PM »

I enjoyed reading Taflemer's detailed post. I'm happy to see he's dating his bulbs... do they enjoy dinner and a movie or do they just prefer a quiet night at home?  (RoFL) ~:0~
 A couple of comments; I believe that a fixture rated for 60 watts incandescent can accommodate an LED with a much higher equivalent. The 60 watt limit is based on current draw so as not to overheat the fixtures wiring and socket. An LED with a 100 watt equivalent luminosity would draw no more than 20 watts and be safe to use in the fixture. Heat would be redUced as well.
 Regarding LED noise, I had the same problem when I replaced an in-ground pool bulb with a 150 watt equivalent LED. When off it didn't generate noise so it would turn on. Once on it swamped the line and it, as well as other modules, would not work.  I already have an XTB-IIR so I asked Jeff Volp for advice.  He suggested using a hash choke on the hot wire between the switch and the fixture.  The local surplus electronics outlet (EPO in Houston, TX) had a bin full of unmarked chokes (about the size of 3 Lifesavers) selling for 50 cents apiece.  Worked like a champ!  Next time I went in to EPO I picked up a handful for future adventures.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 04:22:50 PM by brobin »
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Brian H

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2017, 06:14:20 PM »

One thing on some dimmable LED bulbs not too often given.
They can have a Repetitive peak and Inrush current. When on a dimmer type switch.
This current should be taken into account so you don't damage the switch.
Present day LEDs maybe better now. I have some the manufacturer says count as 60 watts when adding up the loads. Even though they are 8 watts. To compensate for the currents.

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orggardn

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Re: Is there a recent LED compatible bulb list?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 08:01:13 AM »

Well, looks like the consensus answer is..... "your actual mileage may vary". I completely get the ever evolving manufacturer's product specs. Almost a trial and error situation until you find one that works (using some previous experiences with a brand/model). I have some downtime coming over the holidays. Guess I'll hit HD & Lowes and pick up a few and experiment.

taflemer - thanks for that detailed post. I will need to read through a couple of times to get that to stick.......Always great with those that have already been there, are willing to share their experiences.
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